Is it human instinct for kids to be competitive and win? Many adult's will misinterpret young children's survival instinct for an affinity to win or be competitive. Few would disagree that children are innately selfish. Some are more outwardly selfish than others. When a younger child takes another child's toy, it is not about having the toy and being competitive or better than the other child. The child with the toy is only looking out for his or her best interest. When someone has their toy, children are not mad that someone else has it; they don't say I lost it, they are mad that they don't have it.
No one will dispute sports does educate children about competition and winning. The problem is when too much weight is put on the role sports plays in a child's development and we fail to take into consideration what children are cognitively capable of. We all need to be careful before shooting from the hip and telling people what we think is right for kids. With regards to competition and winning, here is what research tells us.
Before the age of 8 children lack the competence and cognitive ability to effectively compare their skills against another child's. While this next research is a bit dated, it is the best example I have found that helps narrow the gap between what adults believe kids want (to be competitive and win) and what kids are actually capable of. Selman (1976)said, "...it is not until the age of eight to ten years that children develop the necessary role-taking abilities to allow them to understand another person's point of view. This ability to understand another's point of view is necessary for one to cooperate effectively with others (i.e. to compete)."
One thing that must be remembered is that there are many coaches and parents out there innappropriately treating 4, 5, 6, & 7 year olds like they possess the reasoning and decision-making abilities of children 8 years or older. The "newer" sports leagues that don't keep score or count wins are designed to combat misconceptions that kid instincts are to be competitive and win. My experience has been that there are many "sports purists" (if you will) who are upset and angered by their feelings that winning inside of youth sports has been unjustly characterized as bad. Their argument is without winning in youth sports children lose the opportunity to build character, dedication, and self-esteem. They are not wrong. Winning does build these things but the question is, how much is built in beginner athletes?
What needs to be understood is we can give credit to winning, if it is done in the right ways. Research tells us before the age of 8 winning is thought of more objectively, than subjectively for young children. The score is a number on the board. Yes, they will remember the number on the board but it doesn't mean the same thing to them as it does to you or I, as adults. To them, it is about Mom and Dad's attention, reactions or discussions about the their personal abilities in sports.
Finally, a Michigan State University article said, "Participation in sports does not result in the development of positive social and emotional characteristics. The positive development of youth in organized sports can only be derived through sports experiences that foster positive experiences and minimize negative experiences." Sports leagues that deemphasize winning are taking more than the score into consideration when they are establishing them. They know the issues in youth sports and amidst a lot of skepticism and opposition, they are developing positive social and emotional characteristics in children.
Coach P.
Fun versus competition
Agreed, another great post
The importance for kids at age 8 and under is in developing a "love" for the game, and, of course, developing the fundamentals so that they can reach higher levels of enjoyment from what they are doing. The more competitive aspects of sports should be gradual and not reach peak levels until sometime in high school. Great post coach pickles, see you on my blog chat again soon.
Kirk Mango
Becoming a True Champion
Coach P., Lindsay and Kirk,
Coach P., Lindsay and Kirk, I'm going to have to respectifully disagree with many of the statements listed on here. Do you remember the days growing up 30-40 years ago when you played pick up games in the driveway or sandlot? Did we keep score? Absolutely. Was there a winner and loser? Absolutely. And no adults were involved! As a youth coach and proponent of youth sports, I'm tired of being constantly being criticized for how the sports model is constructed. People like to win, period. It's the reason sports is so popular in our society.
Weather you keep score or not, keep standings or not, kids know what's going on. If a kid does not know how to win until high school, it's too late by then.
The key thing that is overlooked is not the aspect of winning/ losing, but the EFFORT to TRY to win. I stress that all the time. Everyone (parents included) that in any sporting event someone wins, someone loses, period. That does not mean that the team or kid that does not win is a loser. If they truly gave their best effort, that's all you can ask for.
New Generations of Athletes
Thanks for your comment. I do remember 30-40 years ago and that in itself is a hard reality to swallow, as it is for many of us I am sure. I too played pick up games in the neighborhood with friends and siblings and we kept score. I agree, there were winners and losers, absolutely. No parents were involved. This is a big difference between then and now. Parents or coaches were not that involved back then. Parents, specifically, did things the old fashion ways. They relied on us returning upon the street lights coming on instead of cell phones, the library or newspaper for news instead of the Internet or 24 hour cable news channels, a stove to cook instead of a microwave, and after school programs instead of unified sports leagues. Unfortunately, we can't compare the generations apples-to-apples.
The fact of the matter is with parents added involvement has come some pretty sad chain of events in the youth sports culture. It has caused us to take a pretty strong look at how we are acting as adults. I don't write to criticize you, your child or anybody else but to share with you the data and experience I have working everyday with the youngest and most impressionable minds in our society, beginner athletes. They are too often under-valued and under-appreciated. Just look at some of the programs they are offered. Very few, if any, are designed with the beginner athletes' needs in mind.
Too often young children are treated as mini-adults and taught adult-skills they don't completely understand. I agree, it was a different time when we were younger. Peers or siblings often taught us as young kids. Today, the sandlots have disappeared, child obesity is at an all-time high, and places like gym class where we, as kids, were taught the basics of sports are disappearing from school curriculum. We are in a different place today. Kids need foundational knowledge more than ever. Just so you understand my position, I don't believe we should discount winning from youth sports but we, as adults, have to better understand that there are varying degrees of winning, especially at the lowest levels. This is at the heart of my article.
What I wrote was NOT designed for every athlete but a very specific niche in youth sports, the beginner athlete. Hopefully, if you reread it, you will find it was not targeting anyone, but rather creating an awareness or something to keep in mind when we, as parents and coaches, work with little ones under the age of 8.
Very Sincerely,
Bradley J. Kayden, MHR, NYSCA Member
Coach Pickles, Chief Fun Officer
Jelly Bean Sports, Inc.
www.jellybeansports.com
I am not sure you are interpreting what I am saying correctly
I do not think that I have ever said that you should not keep score in youth sports, nor am I saying that a league should not keep standings, or that kids do not know what is going on (depending on the age and the athlete). I have re-read much of what is above, including the article from coach Pickles, and I do not really see anyone stating that winning is bad and scores should not be kept.
Personally and professionally I am saying that there is an overemphasis on winning as the #1 priority at too early of an age. I have said it many times and will say it again, winning is an outcome of the process when properly applied. In a sense, that is the effort to try to win. It might be a subtle difference but it is significant. When one stresses winning above all else they tend to lose sight of, and disconnect from, the effort to try to win, or at least the effort in the right places to try to win.
You give me kids who have developed a love for the game and are willing to work on the process part of the game (because they enjoy it) over the outcome of winning the game and winning is simple. Arguably, one of the best basketball coaches of all time, actually best coach of any kind, was John Wooden. His whole emphasis centered on the effort one puts into the process and building the athlete from the inside out. Winning to him was an outcome. And guess what, he won and won a lot, and he did it without placing winning at the top of his priority list and with collegiate Division I athletes.
Lastly, I think coach Pickles makes a good point when revealing that many coaches are placing winning as a priority at ages where it should not be.
Further points welcomed
Kirk Mango
Becoming a True Champion
John Wooden's Technique
Kirk,
You mention a great coaching example that all youth coaches and parents can take something away from. I know I have.
What made UCLA Basketball Coach, John Wooden, so great? There is some research that can help us here too. Researchers observed the Hall of Fame basketball coach over 15 practices to break down what made him so successful. They found 50.3% of his coaching behaviors were instructional in nature. They said, "Wooden rarely used positive statements without some form of instruction and his negative statements were consistently followed by instruction as well...Wooden used cue words such as "hustle", or "drive" as a form of reinforcement and to encourage intensity in his players." The same routine was found by other researchers in successful high school football coaches, and ex-UNLV Basketball Coach Jerry Tarkanian.
At Jelly Bean Sports, I teach my instructors that saying less is more. This fits well within your nature vs. nurture approach Kirk. Tell children what to do and then let them do it. Beginner athletes perform best when they are doing. We rely upon quick and efficient story-based instruction that integrates what we call "clutch" words (the same as cues). I will share one example of how we use clutch words for beginner athletes through our hitting instruction. One question I consistently get is how do you teach a young child how to hit a baseball? You have to start with the knowledge children already have. In this case it is animals, environment, and very basic hitting terminology.
Jelly Bean T-ball Hitting Instruction:
1. Catepillars (line up the knuckles of fist for grip)
2. Bat High-to-the-Sky (Bat control)
3. Chicken Wing (Raise one elbow)
4. Swing (Hit a numbered ball)
As Wooden would do, we speak to the kids but usually to quickly and easily fix problems by restating the instruction young children understand, "Your catepillars broken (hands apart), fix it," "Create your chicken wing," etc. ..Beyond the instructional clutch words, there is always encouragement..."good job," "that's it," "now you're doing it right," "great!" Kids respond to this efficient teaching technique.
If parents and coaches value the process of being a great teacher, the way that John Wooden did, this process should be something that comes very naturally.
In general, I think before we go on and on exhausting ourselves in the debate over how winning applies to youth sports, we should focus our energies more on what is working for parents and coaches from a youth sports development standpoint.
Great example Kirk!
Bradley J. Kayden, MHR, NYSCA Member
Coach Pickles, Chief Fun Officer
Jelly Bean Sports, Inc.
www.jellybeansports.com
Thanks Coach
I know of some of the research you speak of. I remember taking a master course in coaching and education for school years ago and one of the individuals we examined was coach Wooden. I distinctly remember watching a video tape of him, his principles, methods, and actions. My jaw dropped to the floor as I realized that Coach Wooden was using the exact same principles and thought processes I subscribed to and that allowed for the accomplishment of what it was I set out to do in high school, college, and at the national level. I was in shock. From my perspective, the man was, and is, way way ahead of his time, and ours. He understood what it was all about.
Kirk Mango
Becoming a True Champion
Kirk and Coach Pickles,
Kirk and Coach Pickles, please go back and read the last paragraph of my post. The effort of trying to win is the key. And I wholeheartedly agree. I do also feel that most coaches understand and practice this. The forums on this site tend to paint all youth coaches as win-at-all-costs lunatics who scream and yell at kids. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, there are a few coaches like that, just like there are parents who don't work with their kids at all individually and then complain because their kid does not play a position or bat in a certain part of the lineup.
I understand your point about John Wooden, his records certainly speak for themselves. But let's not lose sight that Wooden had a remarkable amout of talent at UCLA when he was there. One of my favorite coaches was Bobby Knight. He won, won alot and in many instances took good, but not great players and made them work together as a team. Changes to the game such as the three point line and shot clock de-emphasizes coaching and made it more of an "athletes" game. Reality is though, if Wooden and Knight didn't win, they would not have been in their positions as long as they were.
Bobby Knight
Yes both coaches have great records, even though I personally do not think that Bobby Knight is in the same league as John Wooden. There was a big difference between the way John Wooden treated his players and the way Bobby knight treated his. Wooden did not start out with great talent, he developed it with some lesser players, and then the talent came to him. Bobby Knight did not win all the time and he has had some very confrontational and controversial type behavior through his career.
In fact, I am glade you brought him up. I think what I am specifically talking about deals with the difference in their approaches to coaching. I, for one, would most certainly fall on the side of John Wooden over Bobby Knight. His principles line up well with mine, winning was always an outcome for him just as it was for me. I stand by his record, I stand by mine.
John, I addressed that last sentence in your paragraph - "but the EFFORT to TRY to win" with my statement - "Personally and professionally I am saying that there is an overemphasis on winning as the #1 priority at too early of an age. I have said it many times and will say it again, winning is an outcome of the process when properly applied. In a sense, that is the effort to try to win."
We may very well be talking semantics here; however, I have personally seen a good amount of youth coaches focus on the "W" as their number one priority forgetting the development of fundamentals. There is a difference, and it is significant, between one who coaches to teach and win second and one who coaches to win first and teach second. One is a long term view one is short term, and in my opinion, the former is heads and tails above the latter approach.
Kirk Mango
Becoming a True Champion
Kirk, Being born and raised
Kirk,
Being born and raised in Indiana, I'm a big Bob Knight fan. I think Knight and Wooden are much more similar than most people think. Many only formulate their opinion of Knight with the way the media portrayed him. Certainly Knight's no choirboy, but his interest wasn't kissing up to the media, but to build a successful basketball program. Wooden was certainly a much better interview and salesman (how else could you get kids to go to UCLA in the 50's and 60's). Knight was a great teacher and worked tirelessly on details and preparation. Look at the players that IU sent on into the NBA compared to Woodens. UCLA typically had 2-3 future NBA stars on it's roster at any given time. Other than Isiah Thomas (who left early) Knight teams were typically made up of good, but not great players who bought into the team concept and made the most of their ability.
My last thought is that yes, there are some youth coaches who put too much emphasis on winning, but I'll also say that a component of successful athletes is the desire to win. Winning doesn't just happen becasue we learn all the fundamentals and drill, drill, drill. Athletes many times have to learn "how" to win. Some kids (and I'm sure you've seen this) do all the skill sets good, but they can't handle pressure situations. In a tight game at the end, they fall apart. This is a difficult skill to develop (and some never do) if success is de-emphasized.
Good posting Kirk, we have some common ground, and some uncommon ground, which is fine! It's America!
John
Yes, that is true
Yes I do think we have some common ground.
For me, as an athlete, winning was a product of something else. Most very successful coaches state that games and/or competitions are won or lost long before the competitors step on the field. That centers on preperation. Fundamentals are only a part of that picture (all be it an important part), an athlete and coach must build from there.
That "how to win" you speak of centers on the idea of preperation. That is were it was at for me, especially at the elite level competing against some of our best olympians. My focus, my concentration, was most centered on mastering my strengths and improving my weakness - striving always to reach my potential. Winning, again for me, came automatically out of this process. Others where just not willing to do what I was doing to prepare nor where they concentrating on the "right" things in order to win. There are way way to many athletes, and now I am talking at the high school level on up, who are unfocused during their preperation - they go through the motions. And there are way to many coaches who do not know how to organize and inspire those under there direction to not accept mediocre effort. Some can't even recognize it.
At the lower learning levels of the game, there are way to many coaches who forget the fundamentals and the importance of developing a love for the game. Which, in turn, leads to an athlete tending to go through the motions as they get older, that is if they stay with the sport.
Our discussions have been great. A lot can be gained by viewing others opinions and positions on an issue. I know I learn all the time and evaluate my position based on what I read.
Thanks, I agree great postings!!!
Kirk Mango
Becoming a True Champion